Politics, (renewable) Heating and Gas

Deciphering the Boiler Brands: What we think about the Which? boiler surveys!

• Ben Margulies and Stewart Heller • Episode 2

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Ever wondered why different boiler brands rank differently on consumer lists versus engineer lists? Let us, your hosts Ben and Stuart, guide you through this fascinating conundrum. We begin our discussion by unraveling our personal preferences; with Ben leaning towards Intergas boilers and Stuart, vouching for the Baxi boiler. As we progress, we shed light on the merits of the intergas boiler, such as its unbeatable warranty, commendable customer service, and impressive technical dynamics.

Welcome back as we dive further into our heated discussion on various boiler brands: Worcester Bosch, Vaillant, Intergas, Alpha, Viessmann, Glowworm, and Ideal. Between the known glitches of Worcester Bosch and space-saving solutions of Vaillant, we keep you on your toes. But hold on, there's more! We explore the unique Glowworm installer holiday reward scheme and why we think the customer service of Baxi is a cut above the rest. Join our conversation and be ready to make an informed decision when choosing the best and most efficient boiler for your home.

As we wrap up, let's talk safety. We can't stress enough the necessity of gas-safe regulations and why you must ensure your engineer is registered with the Gas Safe Register. Regular servicing can keep your warranty valid and your household safe. We're eager to hear what you think, so reach out to us with your questions and feedback. Remember, your participation does more than just enrich our discussions - it helps us bring you the most relevant and interesting content week after week. Join us again for another engaging episode filled with insights, advice, and a few laughs along the way!

Ben:

Hi, welcome to another episode of Politics to Renewable Heating and Gas. I'm Ben and I run Bee xpress Plumbing and Heating and I'm based in North West London. I'm Gas Safe Registered. I'm working towards my MCS and I'm a which trusted trader where I've won Trader of the Month previously.

Stewart:

Hi and I'm Stuart. I run H and H Gas Services based in Manchester, and I'm also a Gas Safe Registered Engineer. Okay, ben, let's get started.

Ben:

Welcome to episode two. I just want to say thank you, before we start, to all of our listeners all 42 of our listeners for our first episode. A lot of you came from the United Kingdom, a couple from the United States, but in particular I'd like to shout out to the one person that listened to us in Portugal and the other one who listened to us from Chile. Thank you so much for making this an international podcast. Well done, guys, and hopefully we can grow this to even more countries.

Stewart:

I came across which is best boiler list. Did you see it, ben? Because I didn't agree with it.

Ben:

Yeah, I saw that I'm not so keen on their list either. Should we go through that?

Stewart:

Yeah, I think we should.

Ben:

Okay. So there were two lists. That which brought out One was their best buy boiler list. That just says okay, we've spoken to thousands of different people and this is where they, our customers, say that they have the best borders. Then there's a second list which goes around, where they came to us me as a witch, trusted trader and they said what borders do you think are the best? And that created a very, very different list which I'm really happy about. But my top boiler that I installed was an on is very, very low on the list. Where's your top boiler? Mine's?

Stewart:

actually third on the list. If we're talking about the engineers list and not the consumer list, I agree a lot more with the engineers list than the consumer list.

Ben:

Yes, but which is?

Stewart:

a backseat comes on third on the list, whereas yours which is a intergas, isn't it? Yes, it's from the fifth or sixth from the bottom.

Ben:

Yeah, of about 10. But from customers point of view, your six backseat is six on the list. What's interesting is that the best buy according to Worcester Bosch is a, according to which is Worcester Bosch and the second one is valent. But on the engineers, valent is top and Worcester Bosch is eighth. There must be more than 10 on here, but must be eighth down, so it just shows how much Worcester Bosch is hated by most engineers.

Stewart:

Yes, I don't think engineers like Worcester Bosch very much.

Ben:

But apparently it's the most installed because 84% of the respondents said that Worcester Bosch was a fantastic boiler and 81% said valent. But on valent, on the on the engineers list, valent said 176 said that that was the best. Worcester Bosch was 181, much further down.

Stewart:

Do you think that's more to do with the price of the valent compared to a Worcester People going for a cheaper brand? Possibly?

Ben:

Well, you know, I've just done something silly, because valent is 176, top of the list of engineers. Worcester Bosch is 181. People voted it to like middle of the list. That's why I meant by 176 and 180. So, so why do you like backseat? Why is backseat number three of the engineers list?

Stewart:

For me it's about the customer service, the aftercare, the backseat warranty team. You know you can get an engineer out very quickly for warranty repairs. As long as the boiler has been serviced every year by a gas safe registered engineer, then the manufacturer will honor the warranty and replace anything free of charge, up to however much you've paid to work. It's a five year warranty, seven year warranty, etc. Etc.

Ben:

Yeah, so I'm not so keen on backseat. I really I've installed a few and I just find that they're they're just not as sophisticated as the boiler that I like, which is intergas. Now, intergas did really really badly on both lists, but not on my list. Intergas is top of my list and I'll explain why I like intergas. Intergas has a 12 year warranty warranty as long as you do a service every year and you also put in their magnetic filter, which is priced about the same as a normal magnetic filter like an AD or one of these other manufacturers. So it's the same price I'm offering to my customer, but they get an extra two years on the boiler.

Ben:

The reason I like intergas is the technical side, because there's only four moving components inside it, as opposed to every other boiler which has more, therefore more things to break down.

Ben:

The heat exchanger is completely different, all the bits inside are completely different and I really like it for that fact. And then also on their combi boiler, which we've explained before, means that it does heating hot water in one package. Their combi boiler can be reprogrammed so I can tell it it's no longer a combi boiler and you're only heating water or you're only doing heating, which on a valent or Worcester Bosch or Baxi you can't do. If you put in a combi boiler, it can do just heating, but it will also expect to be used for hot water. It's not being programmed out that it's not used for hot water, so maybe the comfort modes could be turned on accidentally on valent, which would keep the boiler running, so there's always some hot water inside it, but the boilers never gonna be used for hot water. So it's a bit of a waste as well. So I think that's why I like intergas.

Stewart:

Well, the intergas on the old ones, like they, used to have very large traps that would come out of the bottom left of the boiler and would make them very, very hard to install in kitchens. Also, they don't look as nice as a Baxi. They're not a slim line, they're quite big, heavy boilers and for installers they're very, very difficult to get on the wall, especially if you're trying to install it by yourself, just because of the weight of it. Also, some of them used to hang on a bracket which would have an expansion vessel in which would be quite a fiddly install. I have not installed an intergas quite for years now, so I'm not sure what the modern ones are like.

Ben:

Well, they bought out new models, like you say, but I actually don't like them. They're even heavier because they put the expansion vessel inside the boiler and they haven't brought Dan taken any weight out, because the main weight of an intergas boiler is in the heat exchanger and it's really heavy on the bigger boilers. The thing I'm most like about intergas and also I quite like about Alpha, which Alpha didn't do very well on the consumer side and on the engineer's side. It's higher up, too higher up than intergas. So the intergas boiler can be used for what's called a PDHW system, where you have a hot water cylinder outside priority domestic hot water. So whenever you use hot water, bam, the boiler goes full on just to heat up that hot water as fast as it can. What this means is that the customer can have a smaller hot water cylinder and still supply unlimited hot water to all of their bathrooms. But but then on the heating side it can go low and slow and just gently send out that heat to the rest of the heating system, meaning you can have lower temperatures on the heating, which is good for condensing boiler and it's just better.

Ben:

Alpha is also, which isn't very well rated by engineers or by consumers is also another, in my mind, fantastic boiler. It modulates down to very low degrees figures and that's good, because that means that when it gets to temperature, when it's reached that 55 degree temperature or whatever it is that you set it at, it doesn't turn off, so the boiler doesn't come an on-off boiler, which a lot of boilers do. Instead, it just modulates along there even when it's only a small amount of heat that's needed. Which is why I like intergas and alpha. Worcester Bosch can't do that that. I'm aware of valent you can do, but you need separate. You need to buy valent controls, for intergas allow anyone controls that can plug into it and also alpha. So that's why I like those two.

Stewart:

Yeah, on the engineers list. I mean I must surprise Vakira came as last. Have you ever installed any Vakiras?

Ben:

When I started 15 years ago. Yes, I installed a Vakira and have been trying to atone for that ever since.

Stewart:

So I mean with Vakiras. I mean most boilers have the flow and return on the left and right hand side of the boiler, whereas with the Vakira boilers the left hand, right and flow sorry, the the flow and return is on the left hand side of the boiler. Meaning altering existing pipe work, which is traditionally left and right for the flow and return, can sometimes be quite a headache if it's in a tight space for engineers. So that's, I think, one of the one of the reasons engineers would have rated it solo.

Ben:

Why do you think Worcester Bosch are the top of the consumer?

Stewart:

consumerist, I believe the advertising, the very, very good advertising, getting their name out there to consumers who may not be as well aware of what components are inside the boiler and how other components perform as compared to other boilers as engineers would be.

Ben:

Yes, because we work in them and we know that of all the sharp edges, and you know, if you ever see a heating engineer with no thumbs.

Ben:

You know they've worked on on a Worcester Bosch, oh, yes, so I do think Worcester Bosch and Vain, I think they have the best advertising on TV and on radio and newspapers. Sometimes you see their, their boilers, and the reason why I think it works so well is not just because it works two ways. The person that has the Worcester Bosch in their property so it feels good Ah, look, I've got a quality product. Look, it says so on TV right. And then when their neighbour knocks on the door and says, oh, my boiler's got. What boilers would you recommend, you'd say, oh, I'd recommend this engineer who installed my Worcester Bosch.

Ben:

And I really like my Worcester Bosch because it's so quiet and because it does everything I wanted to do. And, and that is true, it is quiet. But so is Valent, and so is Intergas, and so is Alpha, and so is Vismann. They're all quiet. So there's no extra benefit to have a Worcester Bosch and Valent I. I do use Valents when, which is very high up the list, is second and it's top of the installer, the installer list, and I really like Valent in particular situations. So they make a boiler where instead of the fluid coming off the top of the boiler. It comes out the back of the boiler and by coming out of the back of the boiler you can actually save space inside the kitchen cupboard by sticking the fluid out the back instead of the top. So there are situations where I'm very cramped on space in a customer's house and a and a Valent is the only way to go. A Valent EcoTech Pure.

Stewart:

Just going back to going back to known faults on the Worcester Bosch, for example, the on the Worcester Green stars. The old flow turbine adapters were notorious for getting brittle leaking. And then there was a leak onto electric components directly below that. I believe it was the Divertum motor. And what did Worcester do? It was a known fault. Rather than replacing the part with something more durable, they put out a rubber boot that would fit on the motor. Yeah so then when it did leak, it just wouldn't blow the electrics and the fuse of the boiler as well, rather than actually solving what was an actual design issue. Valen had a similar with their.

Ben:

With they had a sensor which was low down. That sensor told the pump if it was working. It recognized a flow going around the pipes when the pump was working. But because it was low down, a lot of dirt gathered right there and so they created a kit the f75 kits I think it's called in the industry at least.

Stewart:

That's why I think yes, and and that that's for the f75 boiler vault yeah, on Valen yeah and they're well done and and so it takes it from low down and puts up higher.

Ben:

It still gets blocked up and a really blocked up system, but that's what they've done, and and well, who was it that used to have those? Rubber the roses?

Stewart:

no, the you're talking about the Veeceman.

Ben:

The Veeceman boilers the Vittadents no, no, the I think was a I think was a valent they used to have. Yeah, they were definitely valent. That because past the f75 kit is not just a sensor, it's also the new pipe work, because they're changing the pipe work from the old rubber anyway is the rubber would get absolutely blocked up. Yeah, that's enough of us talking about those boilers. Okay, what other boilers have we got? We've got glowworm, so have you ever installed glowworm?

Stewart:

no, I have not.

Ben:

I have, okay. So glowworm was bought out by by valent, and glowworm is not my favorite boiler and I don't I want, I don't really install it at all, ever anymore. Glowworm, I think, are not fantastic at one thing they have a scheme for installers that if you install a set amount of boilers you get points towards a holiday and therefore installers really want to install these boilers so they get a free holiday to Florida or somewhere hot and sunny, or Greece or somewhere. The problem with that is I'm trying to install boilers where we can have low flow temperatures, meaning that we're releasing less carbon monoxide into the, into the atmosphere. But but glowworm don't care about that. Glowworm want to jet people on aeroplanes far away. That is their reward. So they put in boilers which haven't been installed fully the way that they should do. I think we should do an episode on part L of the building wigs, because that really goes into what. What should be done on a, on an installation. But glowworm don't care about that, they just care how many can you install?

Ben:

Uh, visman, have you installed a visman? I've never installed a visman. No, I haven't installed. So visman is interesting because they're supposed to be fantastic. They're supposed to be really, really good. Um, and I know outstanding engineers that think visman is the best and they'll only install visman. Uh, I've never really done the training on it and so I don't like installing boilers that I've not done training on. Visman on the consumer list is third one down under valent, which is under wisterbosch. Uh, visman on the installers list is about ninth one down just above wisterbosch, and it's funny because on the list it goes valent, a tag, a tag supposed to be a great boiler. Um, I've never really installed them. Um, backseat, which I wouldn't install, glowworm, I wouldn't install. Ideal, I wouldn't install. Main, I wouldn't install postant, I would.

Stewart:

Can I just ask why wouldn't you install an ideal? I like ideal. I'm installed quite a few yeah, so ideal.

Ben:

I would install for a landlord who specifically requested I would you class them as budget boilers? Yeah, I would yep um a landlord who doesn't, you know, want the most energy efficient boiler. Um, that would cost too much with the extra controls that I've need to install, so they just put in an ideal combi boiler. I want the job done quickly.

Stewart:

Um, yeah, let's not talk about that can I ask, as I know you're a big fan of intergas, uh, what other is their customer service? Like you know, can you get a next day engineer out for a warranty repair?

Ben:

um, yeah, I don't install intergas because of their fantastic service, after sale service. I, I put in intergas because it's a great boiler. Now if it breaks down, you will be able to get engineers out, but I don't know how fast it would be and might be, especially in the winter when, when all these companies overloaded, it might be a few days, um, which is not fantastic. But you know, I think even valent or wisterbosch or backseat would have problems sending somebody out in the middle of the winter. Um, I, I really get it because there's.

Ben:

Um, if I get into trouble, I don't call intergas, I call Richard Burroughs of mid Wales, plumming and Heating, who's shockingly based in Wales and he has this wealth of knowledge. He's the person I go to whenever I get stuck, not just on gas but on controls. Obviously, I've bought the products from him and this is a service that. So actually, I may actually be paying a bit more for materials, but I know I've got this fantastic service afterwards from him, who helped me out.

Ben:

Mine's still the boiler where the boiler wasn't working, where I showed an inter-gas boiler from him, and he helped me work out that the PCB of this new boiler had failed. So he helped me again. I made the phone calls, but he advised me what part I needed, what part I needed and how to go about calling the engineers to come out. So they came out very quickly at that time. So that's not why I buy a boiler. But people buy a boiler, an inter-gas boiler, because I recommend it. It does come with a 12-bit guarantee and if inter-gas play funny games, they've got me to stand up and push on their behalf, and I think that's one of the services that I offer is being on the customer side. Yeah, can we?

Stewart:

just say that all boiler wall guarantees and guarantees are subject to it being serviced every year by a gas-safe engineer, just like if you were to buy a new car from Hyundai or Kia and they would give you a 7 or 5-year warranty. That again would be subject to the car being serviced every year and getting a stamp in the service book. And boilers also have service books that come with the boiler and need to be filled in by the engineer every year.

Ben:

One thing we need to add there, though I've just thought is just like on a car you do not need to go to a car service place to get the car serviced and you can go to another garage and get it done cheaper there and still get the stamp On boarders. It's exactly the same. The boiler manufacturers will want to try and get the service away from the engineers, and that's because you know that's the bread and butter of most heating engineers. But really you can go to anyone you want, whether it's the engineer that installed it or the engineer that you choose to service it. Hopefully me in North West London and Stuart and Manchester.

Stewart:

Yeah, as long as they are on the gas-safe register. Yeah, just briefly touching on the gas-safe register, a lot of confusion I might get and I got it from a few customers this week as well. They ask are you Corgi registered? Corgi doesn't no longer regulate the gas industry, it's now the gas-safe register does it and they've been doing it for quite a few years now. Haven't got the exact figures to mind. So if you are getting anyone in your house to do any gas works or boiler works or anything like that and any gas appliance, they do have to be gas-safe registered and they will have a card from the gas-safe register which they should show you anyways when they come into the property. But if you are getting any plumber in he says oh you know, I'll just fix you boiler or whatever it is, we'll work on the gas appliance for you, make sure you ask to see their gas-safe card.

Ben:

Yeah, that's great advice. I think in September is gas-safe week and I think we need to be doing something on that around then. I think that'd be a good idea. Okay, I think that's it for this week. Okay, bye.

Stewart:

Bye-bye.

Ben:

And that's all from us. Join us next week for another discussion about politics, renewable heating and gas. Don't forget to subscribe and share and if you're on YouTube, don't forget to hit the like button. Just by the way, last week, on the last episode, I made a mistake when we were talking about the fact that hydrogen was being cancelled. I said that Greg Hans was the one who announced it, but no, he used to be the energy minister, naz Grant-Chaps. Grant was the one who announced that hydrogen was being taken out, and I think, sylphine. That's fantastic news and hopefully we'll have somebody on in one or two episodes of time who will disagree with me and explain why he thinks it's bad that hydrogen is not on the list.

Ben:

I also want to mention some other podcasts that I've been listening to that I think you listeners may also be interested in. So there's a guy called Nathan Gambling. He is a real. He knows everything there is to know about the renewable markets and about everything that's low carbon. So if you search on your podcast for a podcast called Beta Talk, beta, beta Talk all one word. It's the base talk for renewable energy and low carbon podcasts, and he has some really, really interesting, maybe more aimed at installers and plumbers, but also for homeowners, and if you work within the low carbon world maybe in government or in a company such as Oxpers energy or any of the others, then you will see something on there that you would like.

Ben:

So definitely look for that. I think that really is it. What do you think? Oh yeah, one thing I think we should mention which is very terrible I didn't is if you have any comments that you'd like to give to us to make this a better podcast. So I know on Apple podcasts you can leave comments, which we look at or I do, and if you go to the website, which is politicsrenewableheteangasbuzzsproutcom, then you'll find some other ways to contact us on there. So thank you, so so much for listening again and see you next week.