Politics, (renewable) Heating and Gas
As Registered Gas Safe Heating Engineers, both Ben and Stewart (with a W) have a wealth of conversation starters (and nearly 30 years experience in the game) about all things under the sun. Including Solar power!!
We are the hosts of this podcast that brings a serious conversation about the UK's heating/renewable and energy policies with a variety of guests as well as discussing politics in general. Some religion may be discussed as well.
Hitting a streaming service on your phone fortnightly! (or possibly weekly. Still to be decided =)
Politics, (renewable) Heating and Gas
The Future of Heating: Innovation, Politics, and Heat Pumps with Andrew Cunningham
What if the future of heating lies in spontaneous collaboration? Join us as we host Andrew Cunningham, a retrofit coordinator turned heating industry expert, who walks us through his journey and his innovative approach to accelerating heat pump adoption. Andrew shares his experiences working with Peter Miller and organizing an "unconference" that pushes the boundaries of traditional industry events, featuring no set speakers or agendas but instead fostering spontaneous and collaborative discussions. Plus, get an insider’s perspective on the latest developments from the Installer Show in Birmingham.
How will the upcoming elections impact the heating market? We tackle significant advancements and the persistent challenges facing the heat pump industry over the past three years. From the drive for increased efficiency to the necessity of upskilling heating engineers, the industry is at a crossroads. With a special focus on the potential impact of a Labour win and the current lack of clear policies, we also shed light on the power dynamics between the gas industry and the emerging heat pump sector.
Have you ever wondered how effective it is to engage your local MP on renewable energy issues? We explore this question by discussing the nuances of contacting local MPs, including the pros and cons of handwritten letters versus in-person meetings. Notable political figures like Richard Lowes, Lord Kalanan, and Ed Miliband are highlighted for their roles in shaping energy policies. We wrap up with an in-depth discussion on the costs and tariffs for heat pumps from British Gas and Octopus Energy, pointing out the pressing need for clearer government guidance on energy pricing. Don’t miss out on this comprehensive conversation about the future of heating, politics, and renewable energy solutions.
Hi, welcome to another episode of Politics, renewable Heating and Gas. I'm Ben and I run BXpress Plumbing and Heating based in North West London. I'm gas safe registered, I'm working towards my MCS and I'm a which trusted trader and with which I have won Trader of the Month. Hi and I'm Stuart. I run H&H Gas Services based in Manchester. I'm also a Gas Safe Registered Engineer. Okay, ben, let's get started To Politics, renewable Heating and Gas. Once again, episode number five. Today we've got a special guest Andrew is here. To Andrew Cunningham, who I've only recently met. To Andrew Cunningham, who I've only recently met but have already had a fantastic discussion with, and we've met up and even sat in a restaurant which we didn't order anything, and had some orange juice.
Speaker 2:It's true, While the game was, we were wondering about the game, weren't we the football?
Speaker 1:Whilst we were trying to work out whether we were going to watch the football. Yeah, Did you manage to catch the game at all?
Speaker 2:I did. I went to a travel lodge so I got in. I was because, well, just to let people know what we were doing, we were up in Birmingham, weren't we? So the installer show. So I was in this crappy little hotel called the Gables, which is right on the edge of Birmingham Airport. So I went in there and said, oh God, have you got any food? Anyway, they pointed me to the Travel Lodge down the road. So I went to Travel Lodge and they did food, amazingly, thank God, and they had football there. So there was about 10 blokey blokes, I guess, who parked their trucks and things.
Speaker 1:So we watched a bit of footy and had some food and remind me for as I'm a non-interested person within football who was playing you know, I don't even know, it was England versus.
Speaker 2:It was terrible. What was it? That's how, as much as I know, what was it? Serenio or something? I don't even know. What was it um serenio or something? Um, I don't even know. I was just. You know, I am a very light english fan, right?
Speaker 1:yeah, I'm the same. So, um, we, like you say, we were up in birmingham. We were actually there the day before the installer show. The installer shows a three-day event, um, which is aimed mostly at installers of heating systems, but it's actually expanded to include plumbers and electricians, um, and it's a three-day event where, um, all the different technologies, tools talks. So much is going on there. And that was was Tuesday, wednesday, thursday and the day before that, wednesday, the day before that would be Monday. That was the first time I'd ever gone to something called an unconference yeah, you heard me right, unconference. And this was about how we can hit our first million heat pumps to be installed in the UK, I think within England and Wales, just because that's yeah, we're not gonna, we're not gonna uh, yeah, scribble on the borders, but yeah, no, that's good, um so um.
Speaker 1:What I want to know, andrew, is first, I would like to know a bit about you, um, what made you get involved with this organization, or, you know, this conference, the unconference, and just a little bit about your journey through life to be able to get to that point where we met sure, uh.
Speaker 2:Well, I came um through uh becoming a retrofit coordinator and a retrofit assessor. That's how I got into this sort of the, the heating world, as it were. So I trained uh to be that so to do, firstly to do epcs, which was, um, you know, an interesting job to do, actually to go around houses and look at houses and talk to people and um, it's a fairly brief um relationship, but you do get into houses and start thinking and looking at what they've got. And then I went further with this thing called a retrofit coordinator, which enables me to do dish out the grant when there were grants, home grants and things like that for heating or insulation. So I did that for a couple of years. I went is it in london and south london. So again, learning about talking to people and what do they want, what don't they want? Uh, there, and also obviously the some technical aspects of energy and temperatures and all that kind of stuff. Um, so that was pretty good, but not quite the deal for me, because I was very motivated still am to cut carbon and that's um quite a lot of time. Uh, you know people are still burning gas. So it seemed very clear to me that we've got to stop burning gas and not faffing around too much with, oh, should we one day, you know, get rid of the gas boiler, and in 10 years, or all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:So I very much felt that I ought to get into heat pumps, and so I spent a good year and a half with a chap called peter miller, who's conga, that's his he's in ipswich, um, and he installed a heat pump for me, which was great. But I learned a lot from him and we worked, uh, sort of conspired, together on lots of ideas and innovations and uh, yeah, generally connected to him. And then he it was his idea to do this unconference, uh, which was quite daunting, because you know who am I? I'm just this little good chap in South London, um, so, but what? So? Yeah, it was Peter Miller and Conger, really.
Speaker 2:And then the unconference is quite an interesting concept because you don't have set speakers, you don't have a set agenda. You literally just turn up on the day and you make it up. You do little post-it notes, as you saw, and you make it up, you do little post-it notes, as you saw, and we had up to 15 sessions where you talk about anything to do with how to get to the first million heat pumps. So I think it's quite refreshing because you're not just sitting listening to the same guys from Bayes or Desnes or whatever the pump, blah, blah, so telling you you know, so everyone has a chance to speak, everyone has a chance to put an idea, um, and you also have a hopefully a mix of people, so installers very much, uh, looking for installers involved, like yourself, um, people transitioning from from gas to to heat pumps, uh, and also sort of academic type, more academic types, and sort of consultant types and government and policy and stuff.
Speaker 2:So it was a good chapter mix. So, amazingly, there's this brilliant place called Energy Systems Catapult, which still makes me smile, but they've got big offices in Birmingham and they immediately said, yes, do it. So it was kind of we did it year and we did it again this year. So we had about 60 people and and again, as I say it's, you know you make it up on the day you could get together and then split up with groups.
Speaker 1:It's my first time I mean, you've only been doing it two years and hopefully they'll continue, because I'd love to go back. I really enjoyed myself. The thing that I really enjoyed just walking in in the beginning was everyone got a chance to introduce themselves and use just three words to try and talk about the topic that they were wanted to think about and my topic that I said in those three words. Actually, I had no interest in it by the end of the day because there's so much else going on that took away my attention from it. Um, and I was amazed by the the wide range of things that were going to be spoken about.
Speaker 1:The things that I felt that I was able to join in was to do with installers and training and how do we get more people interested, and the cost of the heat pumps came up. But then there was, like you say, policy was a big part of it, how we talked to government. There were things that I had never even really considered, like finance, like that's a bit far away from my perspective of heat pumps. Um, and so I I really really thought it was very eye-opening. Um, really, my, my only issue with it was I don't see a way how the people within that room forced anyone to. I mean me, I, um, I. I think I, because I led the meeting. It's my idea, but I think actually sam sam duke might have said it instead.
Speaker 2:Um, that sam duke of Aegean Thermal, isn't it? Yes, a start-up doing interesting things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, who I'm meeting with in a week or two. Okay, he I think it was him who said that at the moment, electricity is pegged at four times the price of gas or thereabouts, and all we need to do is peg it at 10% the price of gas or thereabouts, and and all we need to do is peg it at 10 the price of gas, and then even the worst installed heat pump would be more, would be more efficient, not just efficient to run, but more, cheaper to run.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, so um yeah and and so that's a great idea yep and then there's, but there's no one in the room where you can say we've got this great idea. Every single person in the uk is going to install these heat pumps that's it.
Speaker 2:Well, it's I mean that's frustrating yeah, it is very frustrating and and, um, the thing is it isn't one person, so there wouldn't be one person and you couldn't get just one person in the room and tell them I mean, I, they know, um, you know, they, they all know what we need to do. I say they. So we're talking about, uh, what used to be Bayes and Desnes, um, the so-called the spark gap. You know the difference, the ratio between electric and gas, the ratio between electric and gas. They, everyone knows it, everyone knows it. So that's the frustration thing. So you couldn't, even if you try to put somebody in the hot seat and say, look, you know, we want this, it they, they would be powerless because of so many committees and so many political constraints, etc. Etc. So it is frustrating, um, and this is why, when you get people together, we try and a large aspect of it is kind of, in a way, making a peace with each other, because you've got consultants and you've got business and you've got this, and sort of understanding each other, as opposed to necessarily saying, look, this is a great idea, why don't you do it? Because it's just very, it's just, that's not the way the world works. It'll be great, um, you know. So, yes, it's good to get agreement. So, um, I mean, it's no surprise. For instance, in that room, you know, would would everyone agree that, yes, we need to to change, get the electric price down? Yes, uh, and, and they, everyone knows, uh, that. So it's more like what else can we? What other areas can we get agreement on? Um, so I'll give you an example where, where there's there's incremental shift.
Speaker 2:So there has been traditionally this idea that you have to insulate your house first. Um, even chris skidmore, who's this uh sort of hero, tory, who's given up his job and laid his job on the line and, um, you know, done his whole fantastic net zero review and everything he was at the installer show, uh, even he, when he's making speech, was saying, yes, well, of course we do need to insulate in order to put a pump in. So you know, there's still a bit of work to do on that and you've got a lot of people, the so-called retrofit people from the retrofit world, and particularly passive house people and architects. So there's still quite a lot of learning to, or agreement to, get you on that. So there's sometimes there are areas where the group can actually get a better consensus, and that, for instance, the fabric first concept is understanding that and how we've moved through that is an important thing.
Speaker 1:I went to a talk at the Heat Geek Theatre, which was at. Installer two days after we met at our conference at the Heat Geek Theatre which was at Installer two days after we met at our own conference and there was a gentleman that works for HSBC, like the Green Policy or something.
Speaker 1:His name might be Ian Stewart, because I'd done a really quick Google search and that's the name that popped up and I stood up and I mentioned this SparkGap. And I said to him you used to be in government. Now you're head of this powerful monetary fund, right? Why? Why have we not solved it the way that I've just described? And he starts going off on a tangent and saying, yeah, and I know there's lots of ideas. I've heard lots of ideas I've been floating out, but he didn't answer the question.
Speaker 1:He basically said well, if we reduce the cost of electricity to those who have heat pumps, then we're punishing those who can't afford to have heat pumps. I was like I don't want to do that. I want to reduce electricity for everyone, right, everyone gets cheaper energy, but those on gas will still, unfortunately, be having this higher price, because that's the price of gas. Reduce the taxes on, on electricity, and then you would have you. Then those people, even those people, would want to find a way. Maybe the poorest of society we would still have to help out, of course that's.
Speaker 1:I think that's our moral obligation to do um but um but most people would be able to say they'd see that cost in their head and they'd say, hold on, if I install a heat pump, yes, there's an initial high cost, but then afterwards I'm paying four times less because it's super well designed and installed. Sure. Well yes, he's not thinking that way, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, obviously, a new government, hopefully, you know, cross your fingers, hopefully will make some kind of change on that. But of course, you don't have to increase the price of gas. You could fund these. So we know that these taxes, that the green taxes, are put on electricity and not on to gas, which is obviously crazy, um, so it could be that central government could suck up those taxes and just reduce the price of electricity, uh, and keep the gas the same. So you don't have to, you don't have to swap it, um, you know, don't have to make one more to make another one less, uh, if you have some central funding. But we'll see.
Speaker 2:And it's a long, long thorny, thorny thing, um, I mean, um, what is good, of course, is that there are these tariffs, uh, so in the last I had, I've had a heat pump now for a year and I used a tariff that was 17p, not 28p, um, and uh, you know, that's it, uh tracker, and lots of people do agile or not, you know and there are lots of these deals, so that does help a lot, um, but yeah, the spark gap is just one of these annoying, annoying, forever things that you know may or might not happen.
Speaker 2:Um, you could say that that that the heat pump industry has been sort of it's like we need to get our act together, you know, and get me, and that's this is why all the whole efficiency thing you know we've been driven over the last three years, you know, obviously heat geek and and others, driven, driven, driven to to create efficiency, um, so that the, the, the efficiency of the heat pumps has gone up and up and up, not just because of installers, but also new units and better units. So now we're trying to increase the efficiency of the heat pump and do better installs, better installs, and hopefully we'll be in a sense rewarded by having this low electricity price. We'll be in a sense rewarded by having this low electricity price. It feels like we're being kind of pressured in, maybe a good way to make sure we've got our house in order by creating good installs, good, efficient installs, but yeah, I don't see it as a bad thing to upgrade, upskill our workforce, the heating engineer, to be able to offer these sorts of better services.
Speaker 1:That can't be a bad thing to be better, so that's not something. One thing that I'm wondering, though, obviously um, the elections are are on thursday, so tomorrow elections are tomorrow well, yes make sure you vote, vote no matter which way you go.
Speaker 1:Um, but a lot of the way that, um, the the news I'm listening to, at least and a lot of uh commentary are saying that labor's going to win. Um, whether or not one would agree with that, um, that's fine, but do you think that labor, labor's? To me, labor hasn't announced anything new or exciting towards the heating market. Yeah, it seems to me that the heating market maybe it's my perspective, but it seems to me the heating market. Yeah, it seems to me that the heating market maybe it's my perspective, but it seems to me the heating market is one of the most important places that we can reduce carbon, that we can reduce cost to customers, that we can give them more comfortable heating, which is more beneficial to them because it's low temp, low temperature. Um, there doesn't seem to be any thought going towards that and and it's frustrating and I know they've got financial constraints, but they something should be said and yeah, do you think? Have I missed something? Do you think?
Speaker 2:no, no, no. And obviously you know that's across the board. You know labor has has just tried not to say anything. I mean, I've got my housemates here, you know, tearing their hair out. They want to vote Labour, but you know they're finding it hard because it's such a damp squib across the board. You know, across the board on everything. So let's just hope that Labour gets more confident and you know, maybe, maybe they got lots of power and think they can do something, but at the moment, yeah, they're just trying not to say anything about anything.
Speaker 2:Um, the fear is that, uh, the boilers union, uh, the gas infrastructure, people who, um, have got their hands on, you know, the gas, the gas infrastructure in this country and, of course, the gas. If you compare the sizes, you know the gas industry is like a massive elephant and the heat compass industry is like a little mouse. You know that's the reality of the size of it. So they've got power and they have been holding on, holding on, and they've, so they've been pressurizing. Obviously, even though they're a union, they've been obviously, uh, they've got their teeth into the, the, the government, the last government, uh, and they'll probably get their teeth into the new government as well, so that's, that's a fear um you you mentioned.
Speaker 1:You mentioned at the end of Unconference, as everyone was leaving pretty much the minute before. You said we're about to get a new government, so if possible, let your MP know how important he is.
Speaker 2:Oh yes, that was Richard Lowes, wasn't it?
Speaker 1:Oh yes, it was Therees, wasn't it? Oh, okay, yeah, oh yes, it was. Oh, so yeah, there was too many people in the room.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm just wondering whoever my local MP turns out to be, whether it's Conservative or Labour or something else, even if I was to meet them in the street and shake them by the hand and congratulate them, um, do you really think that they're going to listen to some little person on the street? Are they going to listen to the guy who's in that meeting dressed in an impressive suit? I I wonder how much we can make a difference to well, look, it depends.
Speaker 2:I mean, I've never written to my MP, ever but it was Richard Lowe's from the Regulatory Assistant Project who suggested that, and I think writing to MP is actually a really good idea. I've never done it, but I think it's in writing, it's a letter. They are bound to keep it, to respond to it. It's there, it's a real thing, and it is better than just saying something on the street oh hi, I want to do this. So yeah, but I'd be a hypocrite to say that I'm going to write to my MP because I'm probably not.
Speaker 1:But I think it's a good thing to do. I've written twice to my MP I. I think it's a good thing to do my MP the first. I've written twice to my MP.
Speaker 2:Oh, well done.
Speaker 1:The first time was I got a reply but it was very obviously just a copy paste that they were told that they had to send out. And the second time I got no reply. Apparently, mps get thousands of emails and so so I'm wondering will they? Will they even see it?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, that's where a handwritten letter, you know they've got to, yeah you know, maybe when you, but okay, so it's not a bad idea to to to tell your mp look, uh, heat pumps are off to the future. We've got, we've got to get rid of gas. Please don't bow to lobbying from the gas industry. There have been some changes and there's some changes even from the Tories, strangely. So this chap called Kalanan, lord Kalanan, who's an energy minister, a Tory energy minister Lord, who's been doing some very good things around trying to make sure that hydrogen is history for home heating. He's a sensible chap, so he's been good. Obviously, there's Chris Kidsmore, who fell on his sword. He wrote this net zero, these big net zero documents, and is leaving. Well, he's saying vote Labour. So, um, in terms of, because, uh, of energy, but, as you say, labor has been pretty bloody quiet. Um on it, uh, it's a it's. It's a very long, arduous thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess we will find out in the next couple of weeks as to how the policy will affect T-Pumps over the next couple of years, maybe.
Speaker 2:Well, they're doing this GB Energy, aren't they as well?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We're not quite sure what it is. Ed Miliband, of course, was there in 2008. He was part of the whole push for wind farms in 2008, and that was a very, very brave move, because back then wind farms were way expensive to say we've got to get more wind farms in the teeth of you know, such economic situation. So he's a kind of a bit of a hero really from that time and he's still there, so hopefully he will. But I guess he's been told to shut up in the last couple of months and he did actually make a statement. He made a statement yesterday saying oh, we've got to do more, but you know, right, the last minute. Basically, I, I reckon he was told don't say too much, which is, you know, which is a bit pathetic, to be honest. Um, I I wonder, not of him, but of the, you know, labor party I feel like the the energy companies are.
Speaker 1:They're a bit like like the big supermarkets, right? They tell the energy producers, the small wind farms around the country. They say this is what we're going to pay you. That that's just the feeling that I get. And if there was a way to release those wind farms and say you know, I, ben, I'm starting up a heat pump company, wouldn't it be cool if I could say to my customers I'm going to give you 100 renewable energy. Yeah, you're going to partner, I'm through me. You're going to partner up with this small company who's going to produce electricity and obviously stick it into the grid. You're going to buy electricity off the grid, but at the price that that that seller sells it to you and it will create a lot of small um small energy producers.
Speaker 2:Yes, okay, so this is a guys.
Speaker 2:But yeah, well, this is a massive subject. I mean, I've tried to dig into it, but the whole grid, the balancing of the grid, um, the fluctuations, the grid, um, is it's very complicated, it's way beyond my understanding. I've tried, I tried to find out, but I don't think it's very complicated, it's way beyond my understanding. Uh, I've tried, I tried to find out, but I don't think it's technically very easy. Uh, because, uh, of this whole frequency fluctuation of the 50 hertz, um, so I don't think, you know, you can't just plug into one. I think it's harder than that. Yeah, and obviously politically it's hard because, um, you know, you want a fair price for all, yeah, you don't want to just like some little group says oh, we've got, we know about heat power, so it's it's a tricky, it's very. It's tricky politically, I mean in a way it's starting already.
Speaker 1:British gas have said that they're going to be, for if you buy heat pumps with them, then they'll put you onto a tariff for the first year, I think, of 14 pence. 14 pence per hour, yeah, um, if you sign up with octopus, then whatever their tariff is cheaper tariff at these certain hours, right, then you get those. So it's already. It's not. The government doesn't really tell anyone. You know what they should be paying.
Speaker 1:And if you're stuck on an old British gas tariff, then you're going to be paying a fortune. So I don't think it's so hard to say that little companies can deal direct. But yeah, I have no idea about this industry. Have no idea about this industry and that's all from us. Join us next week for another discussion about politics, renewable heating and gas. Don't forget to subscribe and share, and if you're on YouTube, don't forget to hit the like button.